Update (by Gabe): 29 total people were arrested – more in a bit.
2nd Update (by Gabe): I just got off the phone with the Boston-area spokesman for ICE, Paula Grenier. She informed me that the 29 people who were arrested were a mix of people who have had immigration hearings already and people who have not. The raids were carried out by one of ICE’s “Fugitive Operations Teams” (teams tasked with finding and arresting people with final orders of removal). She indicated, as reported in the Independent linked below, that these raids are happening all over the country, all the time, and were in no way retaliation for New Haven’s passage of the Municipal ID card on Monday. When I asked her what she would say to people who saw the timing of the raid in close proximity to the passage of the card as something more than a little bit coincidental, she repeated that these raids happen all the time, all over the country, and there was no connection.
On another note, I had a report from Fair Haven that the streets are deserted, all activity, economic and otherwise has stopped, and stores are closed.
3rd Update (by Gabe): New Haven Independent reports from the Mayor’s press conference:
As a nationwide immigration debate returns to New Haven’s door, Mayor John DeStefano lambasted the federal raids on undocumented residents Wednesday as a “symbolic act of intimidation” against the city in the wake of an immigrant-friendly ID plan.
…
DeStefano, who’s taken the national spotlight as the immigration debate gets played out on local turf, rejected the claim by the federal Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) office that the raids were a “routine” attempt to track down criminals.ICE made no attempt to work in collaboration with local police, DeStefano charged: The city was notified of the raids by a phone call to the police headquarters on the general 911 line at 7:20 a.m., an hour and a half after the raids had begun.ICE agents were working to serve 20 outstanding fugitive warrants on specific individuals, according to city officials. Instead of asking local police’s help to track down those individuals, ICE “terrorized” the neighborhood, DeStefano charged.In one home on Atwater street, ICE entered with no warrants, searched all the rooms of the house, and rounded up four men and one woman some children, according to the mayor. “They separated the men and the women, and even had the children on the floor.”
4th Update (by Gabe): Turn on CT-N: Currently there is an Amendment in the House (I’m not sure what bill its on) to prohibit CT municipalities from issuing ID cards to undocumented aliens. They are voting now on a motion to pass temporarily (which would effectively kill the bill amendment).
5th Update (by Gabe): The motion passed 107-44, killing the amendment.
————————————————————–
Details at the New Haven Independent.
The raids — four of which, according to City Hall, took place at Atwater, Fillmore and Peck streets — come a day and a half after New Haven approved a landmark new municipal i.d. plan aimed to help undocumented workers open bank accounts, and thus avoid being easy prey for muggers. The law drew national attention; it was the latest move by New Haven to position itself in the welcoming camp of the national divide over immigration policy.
The feds said they detained 29 immigrants on a variety of charges.
Immigrant rights groups fanned out through the city Wednesday seeking to collect information to craft a response. A team from the Yale Law School was preparing to represent those detained, who Matos said are being sent out of state.
The Feds are denying that this has anything to do with New Haven’s groundbreaking municipal ID plan, which passed just one day ago. As I write this Mayor DeStefano is holding a press conference in New Haven. Hopefully we’ll have more information soon.
People were taken out of their homes, right in front of their familes.
Fr. Jim Manship of St. Rose of Lima Church was at the Atwater house this morning speaking to people in the apartment where the raid took place. Manship said at least five people were taken in the raid on that one apartment. Manship was cruising Fair Haven in his white Ford Explorer keeping in contact with activists and immigrants, many of whom are associated with his church. He reported that at least five more adults — four men, one woman — were taken from one of two Peck Street addressed that the feds raided.
Manship accused the feds of “terrorizing” immigrant families as a substitute for a seriously attacking the challenge of immigration reform.
“Imagine someone busting into your house at 6 in the morning,” he said. “It’s kicking… folks who can’t defend themselves. You drive them into the shadows. How’s that better for anybody?”
Gabe is hard at work on this and should have a more detailed post up later.
71 responses so far ↓
Obviously the Feds didn’t like New Haven’s approach and seized the opportunity to walk right up the red carpet that was laid before them. All of the undocumented aliens were at rest and the Feds caught them off guard…
I know, isn’t it great? It’s like those raids where they tell 50 criminals that they’ve won a plasma TV and when they show up to collect their prize, they all get arrested. It’s not like it should come as a surprise to anyone, right?
They’re ICE…that’s sort of what they do with illegal immigrants. They arrest and deport them.
What, were you expecting them to come help them open bank accounts? I know, all the illegal immigrants are getting rolled for thousands of dollars a pop on the streets because they’re walking around with their life savings in their socks.
Hey, if it is true, at least their giving something back to the community…
Newsflash to New Haven, and to Yale Law School, and to Gabe, and to Ladyx: aliens who are in this country illegally have no constitutional right to assert selective enforcement as a defense against deportation.
If you’re here illegally, and a judge has ordered you out of the country, and you’ve been caught here again, please take your precious Elm City ID and get out. Go get a bank account somewhere else.
I’m searching in vain for where the legal theory that will be employed by the YLS lawyers is mentioned/speculated on/etc…
[quote comment="11903"]I know, isn’t it great? It’s like those raids where they tell 50 criminals that they’ve won a plasma TV and when they show up to collect their prize, they all get arrested. It’s not like it should come as a surprise to anyone, right?
They’re ICE…that’s sort of what they do with illegal immigrants. They arrest and deport them.
What, were you expecting them to come help them open bank accounts? I know, all the illegal immigrants are getting rolled for thousands of dollars a pop on the streets because they’re walking around with their life savings in their socks.
Hey, if it is true, at least their giving something back to the community…[/quote]
Genghis–
If this isn’t hate speech, I don’t know what is. Reading it I feel like I’ve wandered into some white supremacist site.
NutmegNoLonger & Jack Dobb–
What’s your effing problem? So really, you have no problem with early morning raids, where the Feds come in forcefully and take parents away from their children?
And are you down with subjective enforcement? Retailiatory actions by the federal government are okay with you? (no wonder the GOP is in ruins, btw.)
What is your solution to the illegal immigrant problem? You probably think the thing to do is to round up all 15 million working people and bus them back south of the border? Is that your practical approach to this dilemma?
You callous morons make me ashamed to be an American. Do you really think Ronald Reagan would be siding with you on this?
Hate speach? Why, because I don’t subscribe to MoveOn.org and refuse to hate America with you? You really have no shame, do you?
You’re like a charicature of a liberal. In fact, that’s exactly what you are: you are to modern liberalism what the Archie Bunker character was to conservatives on “All in the Family” in the 1980’s. Only Carroll O’Connor was acting and you’re a real person, which is somewhat terrifying….
Yeah, NutmegNoLonger. Hate speech. How can you take such glee at other people’s misfortune? Treating these working people as if they were lowly criminals, and laughing at the thought of them getting mugged?
These were real families that were ravaged this morning in New Haven. Yeah, I know many of the people were here illegally. But they’re in the company of 15 million other working people. This is arbitrary enforcement, and is as bad as the IRS selectively targeting individuals, or the Feds coming after someone b/c of their politics. An obvious abuse of governmental police powers.
And Nutty, are you a conservative, or are you a fascist? B/C a true conservative would be aghast at this type of police action.
Genghis:
If you’re looking for hate speech, look no farther than the invective-filled garbage that you and keith have been spewing.
TrueBlue:
I have a problem with people who flout the law and cry foul when they get caught. I have a problem when New Haven thinks it is above federal immigration enforcement when it is not. I have a problem when people come into my country and refuse to obey its laws.
Let’s be perfectly clear about what I DON’T have a problem with: I do not have a problem with immigration; in fact, my grandparents were immigrants who waited in line at Ellis Island and obtained their citizenship the right way.
I also have a problem with you deeming this “subjective” and “retaliatory” enforcement. As I said before, the Supreme Court has ruled time and time again that illegal immigrants cannot claim subjective enforcement as a defense to deportation. (There’s a leading case on this, with someone named Reno (D) as the plaintiff.) Also, exactly what was this a “retaliation” for? New Haven has the power to issue all of the glorified library cards it wants, and the federal ICE has the power to round up illegal aliens and deport them. As far as I’m concerned, no one acted outside the box.
And yes, I have no problem with the feds coming in and taking parents away from their children. If the parents are wilfully dodging immigration laws, they deserve to go away.
Explain, for me, the argument as to why the federal agency called “Immigration and Customs Enforcement” had no power to do what it did today. Please, go ahead. The problem is that you can’t. You can’t actually justify an argument against this. You’re only using demagoguery (”would Ronald Reagan be siding with you?”) and scare tactics (”you should be ashamed to be an American”) and garbage, as a pathetic attempt to endorse illegal activity.
Now go ahead and tell me my taxes are too low…
Genghis, that “you” was meant for TrueBlue, not you. My apologies.
Jack–
Deport all 15 million? Or just enough to cower the undocumented populace into sheer submissiveness?
Really, c’mon and say it. You want to deport every last one of them, don’t you.
“As a general matter . . . an alien unlawfully in this country has no constitutional right to assert selective enforcement as a defense against his deportation.” Reno v. American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee, 525 U.S. 471, 489 (1999).
No, TrueBlue. I want them to follow our laws and become citizens or get out. Just follow the law. (Like the ICE did today.)
Now you’re grandstanding and making up arguments, a sure sign of desperation, to be sure.
If we aren’t going to deport people, why have borders at all? Why not just let anyone in who wants to come then, and just do away with passports, immigration restrictions, etc?
If we think more people should be allowed in each year, then let’s advocate that. But it seems silly to say that we will have x million legal immigrants, and then whoever manages to slip into the country illegally can also stay indefinitely and get all the rights of citizens.
When you’re done with that, please explain to me why this Republican administration has been so lax with regard to the one thing that could curb illegal immigration. That’s right, going after the employers hard.
ICE has no clear-cut purpose of mission. They are acting arbitrarily, wantonly, with no end goal to their activities. The whole enterprise is a joke, and that is why I object to what they did to a dozen New Haven families today. If they want to enforce the existing laws across-the-board, fine. But don’t wreck families in order to score political points.
So Jack, your answer to the problem is to ask all 15 million to leave? ROFLMAO. That’s a la-la land response.
And you don’t have to quote the law to me. We all know these New Haven families are now fucked.
[quote comment="11925"]If we aren’t going to deport people, why have borders at all? Why not just let anyone in who wants to come then, and just do away with passports, immigration restrictions, etc?
If we think more people should be allowed in each year, then let’s advocate that. But it seems silly to say that we will have x million legal immigrants, and then whoever manages to slip into the country illegally can also stay indefinitely and get all the rights of citizens.[/quote]
You’re right. The current system is silly. And I’m sure you have a better solution than the Bush/McCain/Kennedy plan. Can we hear it?
Can we stop bickering long enough to remember our common humanity? We’re talking about real people here with actual lives who contributed to the New Haven Community and our state.
If you can’t muster up any empathy for what happened to those arrested, their families, and the larger community perhaps it’s time to step back and reexamine your priorities.
I agree that going after employers would be the most efficient way of stopping illegal immigrants from coming into the country.
Many illegal immigrants are working for cash wages, and pay no taxes (but of course many of them don’t make that much, and thus if they were legal their taxes would probably amount only to social security, which the employer would also have to match). I guess a lot of them work at small firms, and many of them are in businesses where there’s a lot of cash payments, or personal checks written to the owner. If you are a small car repair shop or landscaper, you’ll get some payments in cash, and you can probably get away with not reporting some of these payments. Employees can be paid in cash. And of course you’ve got maids and handymen that work for individuals directly, and that’s very hard to enforce.
I don’t think there are any simple answers. Going against employers would of course help, but it wouldn’t be bulletproof.
CGG, how do you know that these people have contributed to the New Haven community? Did you ask them, or are you just assuming? That would be your first mistake.
The fault for any pain caused by the torn families lies squarely with the mother and father who started a family when they had no business being here, and not with the federal government. I do feel bad for the children — they didn’t do this — but remember the incentive that is created if we think only of the children. It is, as GMR points out, an open invitation to anyone and everyone, to tear across our borders and procreate. Don’t worry — people like CGG and TBCT will cry you a river, and New Haven will print you a library card. Because that’s the right answer, right?
Thanks GMR. But we don’t go after the employers? Why not? Because America enjoys having an underclass of undocumented workers? To do the jobs Americans don’t want to do, (at least not for menial wages.)
You forgot to tell me, are you for mass deportations?
Jack, what are you, chicken? You haven’t answered. Deport all 15 million? Or do what? Every now and then wreck a family to pretend you’re serious about the massive law-breaking?
The ICE has very limited resources to cope with the army of invaders flooding our homeland; so for that reason there can only be limited, and yes even arbitrary enforcement. It should come as no surprise that they would would act, at the very least, to suppress the most blatant offenders and their enablers. It’s as though the deStefano gang put up a huge banner proclaiming “Law Breakers Welcome in the Elm City”.
GMR – It also seems silly to say, “Tomorrow, lets round up all ~12,000,000 undocumented workers.” Today, 29 people were arrested; if we keep it up, we can round them all up by November. 4056.
Good for DeStefano for standing up to bullying. I am so proud that I voted for him.
[quote comment="11924"]No, TrueBlue. I want them to follow our laws and become citizens or get out. Just follow the law. (Like the ICE did today.)[/quote]
CGG, what bullying?
[quote comment="11937"][quote comment="11924"]No, TrueBlue. I want them to follow our laws and become citizens or get out. Just follow the law. (Like the ICE did today.)[/quote][/quote]
Okay, I think I’ve got your position down. All 15 millions should just follow the law, and get up and leave. Wow, that’s kind of what I want too. That, and for Gabe to be able to slam dunk a basketball, and for Genghis to win the lottery, and for Dick Cheney to be impeached.
But Jack, do you think yours is a practical or merely wishful position?
Slam dunk a basketball over somebody! You always forget that part – I don’t just want to dunk on my own.
Okay, slam dunk a basketball over somebody! Who? Yao Ming? Tim Duncan? Rasheed Wallace? Shaq daddy?
Really, anybody would be fine.
This pisses me off so much. Don’t the Feds have anything else better to do.
This is not what America is all about. Yes and it comes back to my not so
favorite subject, Dan Debicella. Dan are you happy that these raids happened?
I bet you are. I mean breaking up the families is so cruel. Yale does not
have a legal argument because there is not one. But there is a moral debate
here. My God, forgive us and protect us.
I have not been a fan of DeStefano until now. At least he is standing up
for what is right.
And Dan Debicella. If you are so concerned with illegals breaking the law
by being here why don’t you ask DeLuca to resign??? I think what DeLuca
did was breaking the law in a larger way. What a scam this all is and it is
sickening.
Hey Jones, Debicella is debating bills in the State Senate right now, and you’re posting on a blog.
Hi Perillo how are you doing?
The problem with these raids is that they are very spotty and inconsistent. Look, I’m no fan of illegal immigration. I think people should use proper channels when coming into this country, and they should leave when their visas expire. This is an issue I struggle with, and I think a lot of people do. On the one hand, we want people to follow the law like our own ancestors did. On the other, they are human beings, and it’s hard not to feel empathy for them.
But at this point these raids aren’t serving any purpose. There are what, 12-15 million illegal immigrants in this country? They’re here, and it’s our fault. We have never dealt with the porous nature of the border, and the fact that we don’t actually know who is still in the country and who isn’t. We can’t deport everyone. I know it’s tempting, but it’s not possible. We need 1) better border control and 2) a real solution that will bring current illegals out into the light, and get them some sort of legal status. It doesn’t have to be a path to citizenship.
Whatever we do, we need to be consistent. We aren’t being consistent now.
I think that a solution to bring people into the light is what DeStefano was trying to do in New Haven. The current system doesn’t work, and he was trying to do something about it. I don’t know if it was the right thing. But at least it’s something.
BOTH SIDES have a point in this argument. Argument one: they’re human beings and, like it or not, members of our communities and deserve to be treated with respect. Argument two: they’re here illegally. Both are true. Both are true. That’s why this issue is so hard to deal with.
[quote comment="11942"]Really, anybody would be fine.[/quote]
Gary Coleman?
Yes. I’m dunking and its over someone. It might be more satisfying if it was, say, Hartford native Marcus Camby, but, from where I am standing now (not very far off the ground,), I’ll take it.
Jack Dobb – I know their rights – or non rights. In any event, I wasn’t advocating for illegal alien rights, as far as I am concerned, they have no rights and shouldn’t be protected under US law or any proposed law. Legitimate US Citizens, green card holders and political refugees are required to meet certain standards – like, paying taxes, paying taxes, paying taxes…..other than that, I figure the illiegal alien is simply getting a free ride at the taxpayer’s expense. I feel sorry for those immigrants who do it the RIGHT way – it takes up to 8 years to obtain citizenship, however, those illegals are still breaking the law.
Ladyx–
So you like having an underclass of undocumented workers? When they get preyed upon, b/c they’re scared to call the police, — Is that just desserts?
You do know that most of the illegals are paying into the system via real or bogus Social Security #’s. You call that a “free ride”?
Finally, how do you feel about all the employers who are knowingly taking advantage of the illegals’ cheap labor? Do they belong in jail?
[quote comment="11933"] Deport all 15 million? Or do what? Every now and then wreck a family to pretend you’re serious about the massive law-breaking?[/quote]
No need to, but maybe we should give it a shot. Why not build a fence or otherwise secure the border, crack down on employers with tougher penaties so the incentive to come here dries up and end chain migration? Oh, and while we’re at it let’s make English the official language and end the use of bilingual education/government publications.
And how on Earth would it “wreck families”? Nothing is stopping the kids from staying with their parents. Why can’t they go to their country of origin with them? Seriously, even if they are born here we should encourage them to stay with their families.
Oh, and maybe we could try this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback
Seemed to work before.
[quote post="608"]They’re here, and it’s our fault. We have never dealt with the porous nature of the border, and the fact that we don’t actually know who is still in the country and who isn’t. We can’t deport everyone. I know it’s tempting, but it’s not possible. We need 1) better border control and 2) a real solution that will bring current illegals out into the light, and get them some sort of legal status. It doesn’t have to be a path to citizenship.[/quote]
Genghis, human beings have been migrating from place to place since the begining of time. Hell our country was founded by illegal immigrants. The fact is that people are going to follow the resources. Those opposing immigration, legal or illegal, are worried about losing access to those same resources.
We’re experiencing a wave of immigration. Historically it’s not that different than past waves. The laws may not be the same, but the reasons for coming over as well as the complaints from those opposed haven’t changed one bit.
America, especially American cities, would shut down if we somehow managed to deport all the undocumented workers tomorrow. We have to recognize this and also recognize the benefit of making a path to citizenship available for those who wish to pursue it.
CGG – You had me until this comment:
[quote comment="11962"]America, especially American cities, would shut down if we somehow managed to deport all the undocumented workers tomorrow. We have to recognize this and also recognize the benefit of making a path to citizenship available for those who wish to pursue it.[/quote]
That is simply untrue – this notion that undocumented workers “do the jobs Americans won’t do” is a straw man. The only reason legal citizens don’t do the work is because employers would have to pay them a legal wage. In other words, legal citizens won’t do the work because they aren’t willing to work for below minimum wage – something illegals are willing to do. Were every illegal alien to be deported tomorrow for breaking our immigration laws and being here illegally it would force employers to pay a higher wage to attract workers and you can bet the farm that Americans would do them then. It would also lead to innovation and technological advances if it becomes too expensive to employ people. The market works.
I too disagree with the statement that CGG never made!
[quote post="608"]That is simply untrue – this notion that undocumented workers “do the jobs Americans won’t do” is a straw man.[/quote]
Good thing I never said that then.
But undocumented workers are working jobs and the need for that labor does exist. If the jobs weren’t available no one would risk so much to get and remain here illegally.
[quote post="608"]Were every illegal alien to be deported tomorrow for breaking our immigration laws and being here illegally it would force employers to pay a higher wage to attract workers and you can bet the farm that Americans would do them then. It would also lead to innovation and technological advances if it becomes too expensive to employ people. The market works.[/quote]
Wait? What? What you’re talking about is government intervention, not the market. If there is indeed an illegal immigration problem I would argue that the market shares a large part of the blame for it’s very existence.
Question:
If illegal aliens are doing nothing wrong by being here then why do they need an ID card? Why don’t they go apply for a driver’s license and social security card? They’d be able to open a bank account then and not be worried about getting robbed of their cash.
I think the reason they don’t is because they are doing something wrong. Namely, breaking the law. I’d like to know what you all think.
Follow up question:
Isn’t New Haven an accomplice to violating federal immigration laws every time they issue one of these ID’s to an illegal alien?
CGG – Sorry if I misinterpreted your statement. Apologies – I thought that when you said that “America, especially American cities, would shut down if we somehow managed to deport all the undocumented workers tomorrow ” you were saying that we couldn’t support our economy without them. My only point was that we can. Again, apologies.
In terms of the market you are absolutely right. Just like minimum wage laws are government interference in the market that drive up wages so to would a mass deportation of low wage workers. My only point was that the ensuing wage hike would lead to more non-illegals being willing to perform those tasks or innovation in the field. In other words, Americans doing the jobs that people say they won’t do
[quote post="608"]CGG – Sorry if I misinterpreted your statement. Apologies – I thought that when you said that “America, especially American cities, would shut down if we somehow managed to deport all the undocumented workers tomorrow ” you were saying that we couldn’t support our economy without them. My only point was that we can. Again, apologies.[/quote]
I’m not an economist but I think the availability of jobs suggests a need. Are they being exploited? Yes. That’s why I would advocate a path to citizenship. I’d also like to see these workers be able to form unions.
CGG writes: our country was founded by illegal immigrants.
Really…what laws were broken when this land was settled by Europeans?
CGG then says: The fact is that people are going to follow the resources. Those opposing immigration, legal or illegal, are worried about losing access to those same resources.
Generally speaking the American people are not opposed to immigration; what is at issue here is illegal immigration. And certainly those opposing illegal immigration are not worried about losing access to…resources. They are worried about our nation slipping into third worldism where assimilation is resisted, where the English language is downgraded to one of many, where so many come here to be in America, not to be Americans.
And finally: America, especially American cities, would shut down if we somehow managed to deport all the undocumented workers tomorrow. We have to recognize this and also recognize the benefit of making a path to citizenship available for those who wish to pursue it.
America, as we know it, is going to disappear not merely shut down if millions of illegal aliens (please stop calling them undocumented workers) are suddenly, with the stroke of a pen, given all the benefits denied to the many others following years long legal paths to immigration and eventual citizenship.
Stark–
Nice of you to link to Operation Wetback. You do know that McCain said, “if we want to act like Neanderthals on immigration, it will be at least a generation before we win an election again.”
Neanderthal away, please, and by all means,
KEEP LOU ALIVE!
Paula Grenier is right, raids like this are happening around the country. Another notorious ICE raid was in New Bedford, MA back in March.
Yes, Paula Grenier is right. ICE is performing disgracefully around the country.
Steadyjohn,
If you read our countries history you’ll see the exact same fears you have today, which Lead People calling Irish immigrants Micks and Italian immigrants WAP(which stood for without a passport), didn’t lead to a downfall of the USA but the Brightest times in our history.
I don’t fear those who speak a different language than I do. I marvel at their bravery. To travel to a country were that fact alone puts them at a disadvantage and to struggle as hard as they can to improve the lot of their children shows me that these are exactly the kind of people America needs.
Aldon, how is it “disgraceful” when an illegal alien has a child here, and then is forced to leave it when the government enforces its laws?
I cannot believe that you’re giving a free pass to the parents and bashing the government over this.
As with any law, if you don’t like it, contact your Congressman — but it’s still a law until it isn’t a law, and it must be followed. My grandparents waited in line at Ellis Island; why can’t they?
Ah yes, Jack presents that good old Christian Family Values sort of thinking for you. If a U.S. Citizen has the misfortune to be born to someone who breaks laws, that U.S. Citizen’s needs should not be considered when law enforcement agents pursue the lawbreaker. We all know that law enforcement agents NEVER detain people illegally, and we all know that good opponents of immigration reform NEVER break the law. They always have their papers on them, they never speed…
Well, Jack, I hope you never get pulled over for speeding, or for not having your papers on you proving that you’re an American citizen when you need to be getting home to meet your elementary school child when they get off the bus and expect to find you waiting.
I hope no one ever burst through your door in the early morning without a search warrant.
Hey Aldon, thanks. I love you man!
Eff the ‘wingers.
Aldon, your comment is a welcome mat to anyone who wants to stay in the U.S. illegally: just have a child! Anyway, I’m not sure you’ve made a point. Is it that law enforcement agents sometimes detain people illegally? Sure. Is it that opponents of immigration sometimes break the law? Maybe.
But you have yet to provide any valid reason why we should not enforce our immigration laws. I repeat: any suffering to the families in these situation is caused by the parents, not by the government.
Jack, I never said that law enforcement agents should not enforce immigration laws. If they were being properly enforced, it would be one thing. However, there is considerable documentation about how they are being enforced in abusive ways that are not in the best interest of the United States or its citizens. I would encourage you to read details about the raid in New Bedford and still say that ICE performed in an exemplary manner.
And Keith, if you read our countries history you’ll realize they were called “WOPs” for With Out Papers. A WAP is a Wireless Application Protocol. But that’s okay, your trying.
The problem with comparing immigration today versus immigration in the past is that we have a very different society today. In the laisses-faire environment during the turn of the century when we saw most of our mass immigration, you, I, nor anyone else saw to it that immigrants were taken care of. Immigrants came for the opportunity and the chance at the American Dream. I’m not saying many aren’t coming for that today, they are, but may are also coming for the welfare state that we are creating that didn’t exist 100 years ago. The more strain we put on that system the worse the system functions.
I think everyone feels for these illegals. I wouldn’t want to live in Mexico, in that sense we’re all part of the lucky sperm club to have been born in such a wonderful country. But the fact remains, we can’t absorb everyone who wants to come here. So what do we do? Deport the ones who are here? I don’t know, is it possible? Probably not, but if you don’t deport ANYONE, there is no bite to your law. The reason you have punishments is largely for deterence. We’re not going to have a success catching 100% of the violators of any law, does that mean we shouldn’t enforce those too?
Let’s also not forget that this particular group of people was targeted by the Fugitive Operations Teams for apparently already missing a hearing. I’m not getting the sense that this particular group is full of all law abiding model immigrants. Also, I see TrueBlue is far more concerned with an illegals getting a good night sleep rather than the safety of our ICE Agents. Maybe we should schedule our next raid with the community so they know when we’re coming.
There is a difference between being xenophobic and racist and simply wanting the laws of your country respected. Quite frankly, I’d love it if we had an open border policy and allowed millions of immigrants in. Learn english and good luck to you. But we don’t, we have laws, and right now we’re rewarding those who have said they don’t respect them, rather than those who have worked within the system that do.
I don’t think we’re going to disappear. We’re just going to become different.
They’ll become different, too. It was long thought that Italians, Chinese and Irish couldn’t integrate into our society. They did. It took a couple of generations. Give it time.
And remember: Mexicans, Dominicans and Puerto Ricans (because that’s who we’re talking about–not Africans or Turks or Laotians) are also the cultural heirs of the West, just as we are. They aren’t so different. This debate shouldn’t be about race, language or culture. We’ve been there before, and it worked out fine. It’s already working out fine in places like South Florida, with its vibrant, respectable and very Republican Cuban community.
Illegality, though, is a major stumbling block for me and others. The first rule of being an American citizen is to have respect for the laws of this country. And yet, so many people are desperate for a better life. It’s hard to really blame them. They broke the law. No question. But maybe they did it for a good reason. It’s not an excuse, but we can understand that this isn’t a class of hardened criminals or welfare freeloaders sucking off the public teat. These are human beings who work to support their families. And yet, they did break the law, and they should, like anyone else, suffer consequences for it.
You see? I keep going back and forth on this.
Should we talk about a general amnesty for those already here? Maybe we should, if it’s coupled with a national database of who with visas are still in the country (heard at the GOP debate last night) and tight border security. Amnesty, plus some sort of path to citizenship which involves somehow paying off their debt to society. Which, despite everything, they do owe. Community service seems like a start. Lots of it.
We do need secure borders. And we do need those who come here to respect our laws. I think that unlike Iraq, we can remain level-headed enough on this topic to find a workable compromise that really addresses the problem.
GC – We are not talking about Puerto Ricans who, by definition, are American citizens.
Good thoughts, Len. I wouldn’t want to live in Mexico, either. I hope our government keeps encouraging reform and economic investment there.
[quote comment="11997"]GC – We are not talking about Puerto Ricans who, by definition, are American citizens.[/quote]
Oh. Duh. It’s late.
GC,
Being 1/8 Native American I’ll just say I wish you’d all go back where you came from.
Reform is key there in Mexico. It’s sad that country with so many resources can be so poor and mismanaged. I also find the actions and statements of the Mexican government extemely frustrating in the whole immigration debate. Fred Thompson actually had a great audio piece on it, I’m sure you’ve heard it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQLFfTd2l44
He’s right, when a country’s economic future is dependent on the exportation of it’s own citizens it’s in serious trouble.
[quote comment="12001"]GC,
Being 1/8 Native American I’ll just say I wish you’d all go back where you came from.[/quote]
Back to Wales, huh? Hm. I could blog about raising sheep…
[quote post="608"]They’ll become different, too. It was long thought that Italians, Chinese and Irish couldn’t integrate into our society. They did. It took a couple of generations. Give it time.[/quote]
Not only that but many of the things we think of as being American are of Italian, Irish, and Chinese origin. And again, this isn’t a new argument. The nationalities have changed but the fears have not.
[quote post="608"]Illegality, though, is a major stumbling block for me and others. The first rule of being an American citizen is to have respect for the laws of this country.[/quote]
I don’t get this at all. Americans break laws when they find them unpractical all the time. As an example, I jaywalked at least twice today.
One frequent argument for changing a law is impracticality. Clearly some of our own laws about immigration are impractical. Otherwise there wouldn’t be a problem. Again, migrating to where the resources are is often necessary for survival.
[quote post="608"]Amnesty, plus some sort of path to citizenship which involves somehow paying off their debt to society. Which, despite everything, they do owe. Community service seems like a start. Lots of it.[/quote]
Which I’m sure they’d have plenty of time for, especially with all the extra hours people will have to work to pay the accompanying fines we’ll probably also impose.
[quote post="608"]We do need secure borders. And we do need those who come here to respect our laws. I think that unlike Iraq, we can remain level-headed enough on this topic to find a workable compromise that really addresses the problem.[/quote]
We can’t even agree what the problem is. Jim Himes pointed this out at last month’s DFA meeting. He said that almost everyone he talks to about immigration has their own view about what the problem is and how to define it. How can we solve a problem we can’t yet define as a nation?
[quote comment="11970"]
I’m not an economist but I think the availability of jobs suggests a need. Are they being exploited? Yes. That’s why I would advocate a path to citizenship. I’d also like to see these workers be able to form unions.[/quote]
There is a need for the jobs at the wages being paid to the illegals: we know this because the illegals are working for this wage and people are hiring them.
However, some of these jobs would go away if they had to pay the minimum wage (either through better enforcement or the lack of illegals willing to work for below the minimum wage). I may be willing to pay a guy $2 an hour to mow my lawn. But if I had to pay him $7, I’d probably just mow the lawn myself (in real life, I mow my own lawn).
So enforcing the minimum wage or deporting all the illegals wouldn’t mean that every job currently held by an illegal would go to a legal American citizen at minimum wage.
Are they being exploited? I don’t know if I’d use that term. First, if an employee can freely change jobs, I don’t think he (or she) can really be exploited, since the market sets wages for various skills and professions based on supply and demand. However, illegals may not be able to change jobs relatively easily for fear of getting deported, and thus some workers could be exploited in that they could intimidate the employees into not changing a job and pay them a below market rate. However, low rates in and of themselves don’t really prove anything other than there’s a lot of supply relative to the demand. And obviously, the illegals are here, not back in their home country.
gmr,
Most of the undocumented worker in this country are being paid at or above minimum wage.
A good portion even get paid time and a half over 40 hrs because they’re “on the Books” using false documentation. Employers want happy and motivated workers and most treat their employees pretty well.
I know plenty of people in the Resturant business and most start their dishwashers at about 8 bucks an hr and if they show up and work hard they’re at ten an hr in no time and helping with the food preperation.
Construction and landscaping jobs start at 10 an hr or better and advancement is earned the same way,By being reliable and working hard.
Are undocumenteds holding down wages? YES
The Best way to fight this is to give them documentation so they’re not afraid to be organized and mobile in their employment.
GMR–
It’s heart-warming to learn that you’d employ an illegal immigrant to mow your lawn at $2/hour, but that you might think twice about employing him or her at the current minimum wage of $7/hour.
And I have to agree with you, that I’d employ many more workers at $2/hour, than I would at minimum wages. I mean a butler might make sense at $10,000/year, but at $30,000/year it might be more of a luxury than a necessity. But does that matter when referring to sold-your-soul politicians?
And I agree with you that illegals can’t be exploited. I mean the minimum wage lawa are written for American citizens, and not those trying to finagle their way into our superior system.
The fact that we employ illegals does suggest a need for those employees – it also suggests that if they weren’t here employers would be forced to pay higher wages, innovate or pick another line of business. Simply because we employ people doesn’t mean we need those specific people or that many people to do the work.
As for previous immigrations, we focused heavily on assimilation and American exceptionalism – two things that are sorely missed today in the debate. People came here to become Americans – people today come here to be [Fill in Your Country of Origin]-Americans. A return to the idea of Americanism would be helpful.
We also cut it off after a while – we allowed groups to assimilate before letting in large numbers of more immigrants.
I think GC and LenS hit the nail on the head – we need to encourage Mexico to abandn its statist system to encourage growth.
TrueBlue: I was trying to make the point that as good or services get more expensive, people buy less. So if minimum wage laws were more strictly enforced than they are now, the end result would be fewer jobs. Some of the jobs that people are doing now for less than minimum wage would simply vanish. The example I chose was the lawn mowing job. Furthermore, if immigration laws were strictly enforced, so people couldn’t as easily hire illegal immigrants, the effect would also be to increase wages, which would also result in the reduction of some jobs. Not being able to hire illegals would make the supply of labor tighter, and this would push wages up.
As CTKeith pointed out, most of the undocumented workers do earn more than the minimum wage (in many parts of the country, the legal minimum wage is below the minimum market wage, which is why even McDonald’s and other establishments known for paying low wages pay significantly higher than the minimum wage).
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